Karli Auble THRIVEs: Positive Psychology Meets Engineering Rigor (A Chat with Cross-Functional Experts)

In this episode of 'Quality during Design', we delve into how engineers can avoid mistakes and oversights by managing stress and enhancing performance. 

Host Dianna Deeney interviews Karli Auble, an engineering leader at a global firm in the defense industry. She has unique expertise in systems engineering and positive psychology, with a master's degree in both disciplines.

Karli shares insights on her THRIVE framework, focusing on thoughts, habits, relationships, instincts, values, and environments. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing 'error codes' in our bodies, applying practical tools, and fostering better communication within teams. All with an eye of better engineering outcomes.

Listeners will learn actionable strategies to improve their work.

Visit the podcast blog for more info, including how to contact Karli.

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ABOUT DIANNA
Dianna Deeney is a quality advocate for product development with over 25 years of experience in manufacturing. She is president of Deeney Enterprises, LLC, which helps organizations and people improve engineering design.

Transcript

 Picture this, you are in back-to-back engineering meetings. The first one, you're reviewing error codes bit by bit, line by line, making sure nothing catastrophic. Slips through the second meeting. You walk in and immediately feel your shoulders creeping up to your ears, your heart racing, your mind scrambling for an exit strategy.

Here's the question, what if your body has its own error codes? And what if as engineers we're so focused on the technical failures that we completely miss the human ones. More about this. After the brief introduction.

    

 Welcome back. Today's episode is an interview that's part of our series A Chat with Cross-functional Experts. Our focus is speaking with people who are typically part of a cross-functional team within engineering projects. Today we're talking with Karli Auble. She's an engineering leader in the defense industry who has over a decade of experience leading high-pressure teams.

She's also a speaker, author, and coach. With her combination master's in systems engineering and positive psychology, she created THRIVE, a six pillar framework whose name stands for thoughts, habits, relationships, instincts, values and environments. Karli contributed a chapter to the book Beyond the Pipeline, where she shares how engineers can embed thrive into their everyday lives.

What makes Karli's perspective especially valuable for you, whether you lead a design team, drive r and d strategy or advise high tech organizations, is that she translates human behavior into more reliable engineering design. We focus on three pillars of her THRIVE framework: the thoughts, the instincts, and the environments.

Let's talk with Karli.

 It's great to talk with an engineering leader about product design. You have a lot of experience. I'd love to hear a little more about what you do as an engineer and why you love it so much.

Yeah, absolutely. So my role in engineering has always been in the systems world. In undergrad I got an engineering management degree, came straight into the aerospace defense industry and immediately started working in systems engineering. And in that role, really just making sure that the subsystems that we have going into a fighter aircraft all work together harmoniously to make sure that we keep our jets up in the air flying.

Yeah, my, my experience has always been supporting the product lifecycle of various systems in the aircraft. And, in the last five-ish years have spent some time in the radar area, but always involved in the product lifecycle management and, supporting our defense industry and have really enjoyed, being able to solve technical problems get products out to the aircraft, to our, air Force men and women, and, support what we're doing here in the United States.

So is it that your role is more like crossing the different silos of the engineering teams to make sure that the right inputs and outputs are being met and that they're communicating well? Is it, is that kind of your role? You're  overseeing everything and make sure everything is coordinated and works together?

Yeah, so I currently, I am an engineering manager, so my team is responsible for one of the subsystems within the aircraft. And so what that looks like is, managing that subsystem and making sure that what we get from the supplier works and integrates with the rest of the systems on the aircraft.

So that would include, making sure that the product goes through qual testing, making sure that when we get it into the lab it integrates with the other systems, making sure that when it gets out to the flight line that it's installed and can be utilized. And it goes through, again, rigorous testing before it goes out into the fleet.

So that, that is where I am now. But, have always worked with various subsystems and making sure that the integration is, locked in and can work for the end user. 

So it sounds like a lot of technical work and coordination and Yeah, like you said, you really have to have the whole product lifecycle.

Knowledge base in order to be able to execute that in a good way. Yeah. 

Yeah. You really do. And for engineers, I think this justing to their heart, right? A lot of times at the beginning of the product life cycle, it can feel like such a slug with all the paperwork, right? You're getting through a critical design review and for the longest time you don't get to touch an actual product.

But where. Where I've been, where, perhaps our team is now is in this really exciting time where you're getting to actually test what has been built and what has been created out of that paperwork. Which it, Dianna is why I love. The design fog that, I was listening to on your podcast of just how you can get stuck and when you're in that paperwork phase, it can be such a slug, right?

But being actually able to physically touch what has been created is just such an exciting time on any program. 

   We're talking, about systems engineering and how we want things to succeed. We want things to to make it, and we also need to make sure that we do the things we need to do, like that upfront work and the paperwork.

But there can be some costly errors or assumptions that can be made in the beginning if we're not careful which some people call technical debt. can you tell me a little bit more about what part of your framework would help us with just, I guess I'm thinking about the thoughts and instincts of your framework how we can institutionalize some critical thinking, how can we apply what you've learned for positive psychology to our engineering work to avoid those errors and assumptions that we make?

Of course. Yeah. So from an engineering perspective, instincts is one that I certainly have felt stick out. Tremendously in my own work,  as I was looking at this Thrive framework and. Trying to apply it to, the moment where I was in my career where I was just, frustrated with everything and would come in and just feel defeated before the day started. I came into work that day. And I was sitting in a meeting where I'm surrounded by other engineers and the whole meeting is to review what's called, bit codes or error codes.

And essentially what we were doing is we were, all of us had our own little subsystem myself, the radar. We had a computer team that was coming in, we had the displays team, and we would all get together and we would review the error codes that popped up. And as we were sitting there, we have to go line by line.

If something is not functioning with the other system, we really have to dig into it. We have a whole team that goes we have a review code. What's the code? Say, what are we doing? And we were just really looking into it. I left that meeting. I go into a program management review, which there, at the time there was this, leader that we just really didn't see eye to eye.

And as I was going in, I could just feel myself getting flustered. To be honest, there were times where I was like, can I just make an excuse and not go, or if I did go, it would get heated immediately and I'm a pretty calm, cool, collected person most of the time. And had that meeting.

It was challenging, right? Yeah.

And that night as I opened up my book and I started looking into some research, I was. Remembering the instinct section and what our body does when it gets into that flight or fight mode. So instinctually, like what your body is doing. Is it's actually sending blood to your extremities, or it is, making your heart beat faster because it's telling you that something is unsafe.

And literally what happens in your body is, your eyes can get narrowed and you focus on how am I gonna fight or fight the situation. So you're really trying to understand, all of these things. And as I was thinking about that, I was like, okay from. If I go back to the beginning of the day and we were reviewing these error codes, I'm realizing that there were all of these error codes in my own body that had been popping up that I was just not listening to.

And, I was having my heartbeat faster. I was getting my cheeks flushed. I could feel myself getting, worked up, but I was not reviewing any of those error codes in the moment. So what that led to was this body getting extremely tense focusing right on potentially the wrong things of how do I fight this person or how do I just get out of this situation, or my goodness, I hope time runs out and they don't even get to me.

And I was thinking about, if we as engineers. Didn't listen to those error codes. Something catastrophic could happen. And so when you relate that to an individual and the burnout or the various things we see with women in high stakes careers, this is what's happening in our own bodies.

So the next day as I went in, I was thinking, okay from an engineering perspective, what do we do? We review these error codes, we take a moment. We asked the question, is it safe to keep flying or are we okay? And so that day, I went back and I was like, what tools do we have? If you're familiar with the box breath 

yes. 

Yes. So this is one tool that if for, if anybody's listening and isn't familiar, it's. You breathe in for a count of four, you hold for a count of four, you breathe out for a count of four, and you hold for a count of four. In birth this is one tool that is used.

I have seen it used in the yoga studios. Um, In my studies I was surprised to hear that Navy Seals actually utilize this in battle. And the reason they do this is because it allows you to use a larger portion of your brain because blood is then reminding you that you're calm. You can see a larger range.

There's all of these physical benefits when you utilize that to calm yourself down. And so I thought, you know, 

if they can use that in  arguably a much, you know, 

 A challenging environment, then maybe I can use it where nobody will notice. Going into those same meetings. So had that review, went to the meeting with that individual, felt myself starting to get worked up, noticed it, right?

Which is the first point of actually noticing that this is happening, this is going on in my body. And in doing so, I'll never forget, we were, we started to get into it. I could feel that there was some heatedness. I was, I could feel in my mind, like I'm thinking of how do I get out of this situation?

And then I realized, as I was briefing, okay, hey, me and this guy are off. So after the meeting had sent a note that said, Hey, it just feels like I'm maybe not, presenting the data how you want, or I'm not giving you the right info. But every time we have this challenge, can we chat about it?

Had a conversation with him and realized that there's just another format that he's used to. And he sent it to me. I was able to translate the data into a format that he wanted. And every other time as I go to present this, he understood it. I understood it. We were on the same page.

And I just thought, with that one example. How many times do we get in situations? How many times do I, how many times do my teammates get in situations where we're going in? We're not recognizing that we're getting in that fight or flight mode. And we're talking past each other. This instinct section was really something that I, I see time and time again.

I've seen just talking with the mentee the other day about, her conversations with her leadership and you could, visibly see her. Lip shaking and you could see she was getting worked up. So having this conversation and being able to translate it from what's physically going on in your body has just been a very powerful tool and a shift that, we can help engineers who maybe aren't the most intuitive with their bodies come into their bodies to see, okay, what error codes are going on and can I fly or.

Or not? 

Yeah, so just for the personal engineers that is true. We just tend to push away any thoughts or feelings and get the job done and plow forward to the end. But like you were describing, that can lead to some bad errors and misjudgments because we are stressed or we're not thinking clearly or we're distracted by other things, but not really.

Acknowledging it. Is that right? 

Yeah. Absolutely. And to think, when I think about this, the program manager wasn't able to, he time and time again, might not have been able to make the right decision for the program because I wasn't providing data that he understood or data that aligned.

There's all of these potential opportunities for failure for mis comms when we're not taking a step back to listen to what's going on, or how we feel off in our own bodies and in our own team environments. 

Yeah, so there's the individual check-in with yourself. To make sure that you're clearheaded and and where box breathing can help with that. It's a simple tool that's effective like you said. And then there's the other part of that, which is recognizing that in others. Which it sounds like you started recognizing that in the teammate that, that you were stressed in meeting. Yeah.

And then there was the lady, you said her, you noticed, her lips started shaking. And I used to be in a product team where there was a senior engineer, very knowledgeable, but would consistently. Get very frustrated with the rest of us. Why are we making these decisions? They don't make any sense and it didn't take very long for him to start yelling.

And then at that point we, we knew he had experience and we took him seriously. And we tried to communicate. But then once it got to that point, there was just, everybody just had to walk away. It was. Disruptive. You can't control other people. But it seems like you, you'd notice this in other people, like they're starting to ramp up or they're starting to get uncomfortable.

So as a leader what are some of the things that you do to intervene now? It sounds like in the one case with. The leader that you were meeting with you decided to, end the meeting but then follow up with them afterwards to say, how can we work together differently so that we're both communicating better?

So do you do that often and what are some of the other things that you do?

Oh yeah you're hitting on one of my favorite topics. Yeah, so like for example, when I saw the mentee, her lips start to quiver as she was talking about meeting with this person. She was visibly getting very worked up.

And it might be a. Something that we say, but a lot of engineers aren't great with emotions, right? Aren't great with how we express these things. So seeing that visibly happen, what I love doing is translating, Hey, I'm noticing that physically your body is doing this and I'm wondering if you are feeling any of this stuff happening and.

As you go in to have that really hard conversation, here's some tactical tools that you can utilize, like the box breath. Or, another thing that I share is, when people go in for hard conversations, there's studies that have happened from college students or people in corporate careers that when you're going in to have a hard conversation or to take a hard test or to do something that you're not looking forward to, even just thinking about a positive.

Happenstance for 60 seconds before can greatly change the outcome. In talking to her, when you go into that, think of in a time in your career that you loved, right? Being out on the flight line, being able to see that first ferry of an aircraft. Think of those things because it's gonna better impact that conversation because it, it helps rewire your brain for, the positivity there.

So certainly being able to, one, just make the person aware of what's going on. Two, give them some tactical tools. The other thing you mentioned about the yelling so I had an employee who that was their go-to, right? When things were heated, it would get up and you did a lovely conversation about the critical conversations.

But when things would heat up. He would immediately resort to the yelling. And so in a conversation with him, as his manager was able to just sit down and share facts, right? Share facts of, Hey, I've noticed that whenever we get into these hard conversations, things start to get heated up.

You have a tendency to yell from a physiological standpoint. Literally what happens in other people's brains is it shuts down. Studies have shown that when somebody yells, the other person doesn't get to utilize all of their brain because they are thinking about how do we get out of this conversation?

How do we calm it down and we're no longer talking about the problem. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

So in that conversation and I just was chatting with somebody about this a couple weeks ago. In that conversation, you're able to make the other individual aware of, Hey, when this happens. I'm essentially shutting down the other conversation, so again, just pointing out the facts and the data about this is what happens to your body. This is what's happening with the other person's body. And I think for engineers, it just makes so much more sense than me coming in and saying, Hey, you probably shouldn't yell at people, because then they're like they deserved it.

And 

yeah. 

They're not listening, but being able to just say, Hey when you do that, do you notice that the other person shuts down? Do you notice that the whole room shuts down? This is what's going on. And this is how it's gonna stop us from having those quality conversations that we need to have.

Yeah. And I'm wondering does this sort of relate to. The e part of your framework for environment? It does The environment in which we meet we meet and the way that we start off a meeting or are there things about where we meet and how we start and how we start our conversations that can have a positive impact on the instincts.

Yeah. Certainly when I talk about environments a lot of times yes we're talking about like the physical environments that we're in, the example that I gave in the book was, from when I was feeling the lowest in my career and I was thinking, how do I apply this framework?

I walked into work the next day and I'm looking around my office and I saw dead plants. In my pots. I saw leaky ceiling tile, and just like a mess of paperworks out on my desk. And when I'm talking about instincts, it's, if I'm coming in and I immediately am just making a to-do list in my head of Ugh, I gotta put an order to get that tile fixed.

I gotta repot these plans, I gotta organize these things. That doesn't allow me to come in and think about opportunities to improve things, right? Because I'm immediately already trying to tackle. The bad stuff. 

So it's like the environment is a distraction from 

Yeah. Yes. 

What you really should be doing.

Exactly. And when you think about that, right? Anytime you go to the restroom and come back, anytime you go to a meeting and you come back and this can be the same thing with conference rooms, with with when we were talking about environments and cross-functional teams, the one thing I encourage my team and myself to do is.

As you're going about the day, if there is something in the environment that you see that you are just getting frustrated with, if you are, if this is happening multiple times in a week, then it. It's taking up a lot of brain space, right? So if I am working with a supplier manager and every time I have to send this data, we have to use this clunky system and the, it doesn't work, and it takes me an additional 30 minutes to upload it, and then she has to pull it down and we just get frustrated.

If I just let that environment linger and linger, it costs us a lot of valuable time. It, it can be physically certainly is one that I recognize quite a bit in my own life. But it's also that, virtual environment of, hey, if we're getting on, this, I don't wanna say a name of a system, but if we're getting on the system and we can't talk to each other, then we gotta figure that environment out or else we're gonna, we're gonna really struggle.

So it's really looking at all of those areas. It is certainly, the thing I love about this Thrive framework is. If you don't have your environment, it's gonna impact your instincts because I'm gonna come in the office, I'm gonna see all these things that I need to do, and I'm already gonna feel frustrated.

I'm already gonna start to feel that oh, I gotta do this, or put me in that freeze mode, or whatever it might be. It's a good, healthy reminder. To check those environments and see how we can improve them in order for a more conducive work situation. 

So there's a couple of environments that we're talking about.

One, one is your individual space at work or your office. And then the other one is the communal places where we meet, whether it's, and you bring up a good point, whether it's a physical office or it could be a virtual. One. And they both have designs, but the individual one I used to work with a group that, that hired somebody to manage and create a lot of the training aspects.

So they were moving from an r and d aspect into more of a production aspect. They hired somebody that used to be a teacher a teacher in a public school to handle the corporate training. Yeah. So it was, it was a different environment. She was really great at her job, but they gave her an office that was in the basement along with the manufacturing floor.

So she was accessible to everybody, but it was, there was no windows. It was this closed off box, two doors. And. I went down to visit her one day after she was starting to get settled in, and it was just like a breath of fresh air because yes, in among all that aseptic manufacturing areas, you walk into her office and she had lamps and she didn't have the overhead fluorescent lights on.

She had lamps, she had pictures around and she really tried to make it a welcoming space for her. And she did. But what ended up being is like, I wanna go visit the training manager. Yes. 

Yes. 

Because I need to get outta here and I need to talk about some training. So not only did it help her.

But she made it a welcoming space for people to want to come and visit her, which made her job a little bit easier.

I love this example so much and this is so key and specifically, I don't know if everybody else feels this way, but as a woman in engineering, I found myself replicating what I saw around the office and my office. My, cube at the time. It reflected what I thought I needed to do as a woman in engineering. And I love your example so much, and I think there's so much to learn.

I've, I've really worked at this over the last couple of years of only bringing in things that truly bring me joy,

I know a lot of conference rooms are generic but it's necessary to have some of that. White space, to be able to work together. But the virtual rooms, we normally don't think about designing those as environments to be conducive for teamwork. So what's one thing that, that you've seen done or that you've implemented with your team that works really well for a virtual working environment?

Yeah, absolutely. So my team is dispersed across the country and we just had a huddle where I bring the team together at the beginning of the year. And from a sports, analogy, it's okay, here's the playbook for this year. Here's the things that we need to do, what's not working, what. Working well, and actually a really great engineer gave the suggestion of, she's working virtually from another location.

And she encouraged us to lean into the virtual work environment of utilizing teams to the full extent. So we just switched to teams and there's all these different tools that you can utilize, group chats and when you're in a meeting taking actions and taking notes and putting all of that into the meetings.

And we haven't really, doubled in on using that. And, she offered this idea and I thought, oh, that's a good idea. We could, maybe do something. Maybe it'll streamline some of these conversations. But I will tell you, in the past two weeks, I have just seen things. Dramatically.

It, it's made such a big impact because instead of emailing people, we have our entire team on this group chat and instead of just one email that sits in somebody's inbox for half a day, and then the next person's inbox for two days, and the next we're just having these conversations and, the one thing we were really clear about was like agreements on it of, not that this is we don't want this to like.

Put pressure on where it's like you have to be on all the time. So if you don't know the answer to something, let's just, just share with the team. Hey, I don't know, but let me get back to you. And it has been very useful. And I feel like I sound pretty old school when I say we're not, we haven't always leaned into it, but it's new to our team and that's certainly one from a work environment of just.

Making sure that we're reaching out to everybody asking for ideas and having this come up. It has just been extremely helpful for us who, are working in various time zones across the country, 

it's funny, it's, it seems like engineering teams are slow to adopt some of these communication tools.

Yes, 

because it was just, I think it was just last year that my, my friend works in engineering and the manager was like, can't you just set up like an email chain? How do you set up the email chain? And I'm like, what? Why are you setting up email chains? 

I know 

there's all these other new tools to do yeah. But it sounds like you, you all agreed to some ground rules which is a good idea for teams that wanna change their communication style. Just what are the expectations or what are we gonna use this for? Did you find that you needed to have a, like a special meeting to set that up?

Or how did you kickstart that? So if an engineer's list. They're like, yeah, we need to get away from email. What's a good way for them to get started to help their team transition to something more accessible, 

yeah I will say as an engineering manager, I, if anybody's listening as an engineering manager, highly encourage these like yearly kickoff meetings.

I have seen time and time again where, just getting aligned on here's the goals that we're trying to reach this year, here's the milestones that we're working towards. And then always having some conversation about one, getting buy-in on here's the goals, does anybody see any issues with the schedule?

Because there could be times right, where somebody brings something up that, okay, I, I wasn't thinking of and how that's gonna impact our larger goals. So that has been really useful. But always having the conversation of, hey. What could we do differently? One year it was like, I had just started in the positive psychology world and I was like, I feel like we're stuck in this do loop.

And so just opened it up to the team on where do you feel stuck? How do we get out of here? So as an engineering manager, highly recommend that. If you're an individual contributor and you're listening and okay, I'm not gonna set up this large team meeting. Would really encourage you to talk to your manager to just have that conversation of, Hey, I'm seeing these opportunities where we could improve on communications.

I have some thoughts and ideas and see if they're open to listening to it. I have a lot of trust in a lot of the managers that you know. My company at least, has put into those roles. And I would assume that leaders are getting in those positions for the right reasons. But if you're in an environment where you're like, I can't talk to them about it, or maybe there's a team lead or a mentor or somebody at your company that you can chat with about this. And I will bet that they'll be open to the idea because a lot of times we just get so stuck in doing things how we've always done it. And so we don't always take the time to pull up and to think about, oh, how could we do these things differently?

So yeah, I, I think as an engineering manager, if somebody came to me with that. I would think that is oh, this is great. They're going above and beyond to try to help make us better. 

Yeah. And sometimes people don't wanna take the time to transition or to try to transition. Just even finding out what it would take or if you really wanted to make a case I suppose you could look at the time it would save and the improved communications.

Yeah. Yeah. And this kind of just makes me chuckle a little bit, but anytime we switch to a different Microsoft Suite you have engineers who will fight it with everything. They'll try to find every exception not to and it's just because we, we're moving fast, we're trying to get things done, but, that kind of ties into the thoughts process, right? And the cognitive behavioral theory tells us that our thoughts create our feelings. Our feelings create our actions, and our actions reinforce our thoughts. If somebody's I don't want to, you have this thought, I don't wanna upgrade to this next system, it's gonna lead you to feeling like disgruntled, that somebody's forcing you to, which will lead you to, actions of feeling angry and yelling at a meeting and saying how stupid it is that we're changing and how it's disrupting everything, which just reinforces that whole cycle.

Yes it. We love to make things hard. As much as engineers love to improve things, we also love to make things difficult sometimes. 

When we were talking before we pressed record, we were talking about how engineering just bleeds into all other things in life, and it sounds like it's similar with.

The positive psychology things that you study that once you stop to recognize it or start practicing it or help other people with it, then you start to see it more often. And it sounds like it would be a really useful thing to start to adopt. 

Yeah I'm so happy that somebody, encouraged me to say, Hey, could you apply this to your work?

Because you're obviously very passionate about it and. Once I unlocked that, I will have the Thrive framework in my mind, and anytime I feel like I'm in this place of survival mode, right? Anytime I feel like something is just not working for me, I can use the Thrive Framework as a tool to look like, okay, is it my thoughts?

Is it my habits around what's going on? Is it the relationships? Is it the mentors? The managers, the coaches, the therapists, is something off here? Is it the instincts, the values? Like where do I feel misaligned? And it's just been such a useful tool that I'm so happy that you allowed me to come share with you today and I hope, if anybody has any questions, I would be so happy to walk them through it because it's certainly been a useful tool for me and I love sharing more about how others can apply it in their own lives.

In on that note, how can the audience find out more about you and can they contact you?

Of course I am on LinkedIn. My name is Karli Auble, so I would love to connect with you there. I also have a website, www.life, the letter n labor.com.

And that website, it still hosts the positive childbirth course that I originally put together in my master's class. It also has more info about speaking and connecting with me. And then I'm also on Instagram and Facebook at Life 'n Labor. 

I have to say that when I shared this listeners and participants have opened my eyes to how they've used the THRIVE framework to overcome the challenges that they're facing. If there's anybody here that made some connection, I would love to hear from them to see how they've applied it, because it just, it helps reinforce the ideas and, really looking forward to hearing how others are using it in their own lives.

That sounds great. Karli, it was fantastic having you on the show and talking with you. I've learned a few things that I'm going to try going forward here.  So thank you very much for joining me. 

Of course. Thank you so much, Dianna. I really appreciate the time today.

 That concludes our interview with Karli. So here's my challenge for you this week. The next time you're in a meeting and you feel your shoulders creeping up or your heart's starting to race, or that familiar tension building, don't ignore it. Treat it like an error code. Ask yourself, is it safe to keep flying or do I need to take a breath and recalibrate?

You can find Karli Auble on LinkedIn or visit her website at lifeandlabor.com.  That's LIFE, the letter N-L-A-B-O R dot com. She'd love to hear how you're applying the Thrive framework in your own engineering work. If you enjoy this conversation, subscribe to Quality during Design, wherever you listen to podcasts.

And if you know an engineer who needs to hear this, someone who's always pushing through without checking their own error codes, send them this episode. This has been a production of Deeney Enterprises. Thanks for listening.