Shannon Cummings on Why Marketing Should Be in the Room Before the First Prototype (A Chat with Cross-Functional Experts)

Your team keeps building the wrong thing, despite great effort. What if the problem isn’t execution. It’s the fog you’re navigating in?

We speak with Shannon Cummings, a seasoned product and marketing strategist who’s spent his career bridging the gap between Marketing, Product, and Engineering. He’s launched life-changing medical devices, cut development time in half, and done it all by bringing marketing into the room before the first prototype. 

In this episode:
• Why product development fails when marketing is an afterthought
• How early customer insight—not prototypes—should drive design
• The real power of cross-functional alignment (and how to make it happen)
• A proven process to keep teams united, focused, and customer-obsessed from day one

Show notes and links: https://deeneyenterprises.com/qdd/podcast/s3e18/

Transcript

Why Products Fizzle

Dianna 0:00

Welcome to the Quality During Design podcast. We're talking about product development and on your latest project, you've spent months, maybe even years, designing a product that's supposed to solve a real customer problem. The engineering team is proud. The leadership is excited, but when it launches, it kind of fizzles out. There's silence. There's no traction and no adoption. Why? Because somewhere along the way, the Project why got lost. The customer's voice faded and the team forgot they were building something for people, not just for technology's sake. If this sounds familiar, you're not alone. In fact, this is a common and costly failure in product development, and it's not because teams lack talent, it's because they lack alignment. Especially between marketing, product and engineering. That's why today's guest is so valuable. Let's talk more with Shannon Cummings, a marketing expert after this brief introduction. Welcome to Quality During Design, the place to use quality thinking to create products. Others love for less time, less money, and a lot less headache. I am your host, Dianna Deeney. I'm a senior quality engineer with over 20 years in manufacturing and product development and author of Pierce the Design Fog. I help design engineers apply quality and reliability thinking throughout product development from early concepts through technical execution. Each episode gives you frameworks and tools you can use. Want more? Visit Quality during Design dot com. Welcome back. Shannon Cummings is a seasoned product and marketing strategist who helps organizations bring clarity to complex markets and build products that truly resonate with customers. He's known for bridging the gap between marketing, product and engineering, translating customer insight into actionable product direction and strengthening cross-functional alignment. When he agreed to join me on the show to talk about marketing's role in cross-functional product development, I knew this conversation was too important to miss. Because what Shannon brings to the table isn't just theory. It's hard earned experience from launching life-changing orthopedic devices to cutting a two year development cycle in half through deep team alignment. He's proven time and again that when marketing isn't siloed, but woven into the fabric of design and engineering, the results are not just faster, they're better. So if you've ever felt like your team is working hard, but missing the mark, or if you've ever wondered how to keep marketing from becoming an afterthought, this episode is for you. Without further delay, let's talk with Shannon. I. Hi Shannon. Thanks for being on the Quality During Design Show.

Shannon 2:59

Well, thanks Dianna. It's, it's great to be here. Thank you for asking me to be on. I'm certainly honored to be here.

Dianna 3:05

You're known for translating customer insights into actionable direction for new products. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you love about design and what some of your favorite design projects have been? Get us to know you a little bit better and how we would see working with you if we worked in the same company.

Shannon 3:24

You, you know, I, I think that in any career, especially as you get further and further in your career, what you start to look for is less about the monetary, you know the monetary side of things, and more about the legacy that you're gonna leave behind when you, when you do decide to, to retire. And what I. I love about product design is there's some permanence to, to product design. You know, you're not, it, you, you're not building concepts, you're not building programs. You're building things that, that are, you know, are, are designing and building things that are, they're gonna hit the market and they're gonna make impact. In people's lives, and especially in, in my world, I'm in, I'm in orthopedics specifically in foot and ankle. I can directly see the impact of what we do as an organization and, and the lives we change because of what we do. And so that's, that's what really motivates me. As far as product design goes, I, I absolutely love it.

Start With the Real Problem

Dianna 4:22

Now a huge pain point for my audience is that they often start designing with incomplete clarity. So from your perspective, and you said you, you actually see the results of the products that you help to make. So is that disconnect, that incomplete clarity when we start designing products: is that a failure of data or is that a failure of translation between our departments?

Shannon 4:48

Dianna what I've, what I have found in my career, it's, it's really in my opinion. Neither one of those things. I think it's usually a matter of process and you have to have a process in place, a design process in place that gives your marketing team or whoever, whoever develops voice of customer that gives them the space and time to actually go out. And, and get that information and put it in a form that, you know, that, that translates easily for the entire organization. So, you know, you, you really need to be defining the process with the start, at the true beginning of, of the project. And the true beginning of the project is not when we put pen to paper on design. The true beginning of the project should be, in my opinion. Going out and really understanding what the destination is before we start the journey. Really defining what we're solving for before we actually start the design process. And, and in my experience that's essential, but it's also in a lot of organizations, rare to have that truly defined in the process.

Dianna 5:55

So why is the process missing in a lot of organizations? Is it because of a rush to move ahead and make it to market, or is it other reasons?

Shannon 6:04

Certainly, I think there's part, you know, partly is, is we wanna move as fast as we possibly can, right? And, and. At least what I've seen, especially on the engineering side, it's a matter of getting that project started and then getting it out as fast as you possibly can. And, and in some cases it becomes, you know, checking boxes and, and in my opinion that is that that's. Exactly where you don't want to be. So I really think it has, the, the reason we fail at this is because most organizations don't have a defined marketing process that's aligned with a development process. And so when those two things, you know, when you have a a, a real process that, that, that dictates what marketing does and it aligns to a design process. You know, you can then get the discipline and the process, the, the, the steps in place to actually achieve getting that VOC in place.

Marketing Process and Positioning

Dianna 7:04

No I've worked with organizations that there was a lot of marketing analysis done at the beginning of a project, like a market feasibility study or to just gather enough information to be able to decide if the project is going to become a project in order to get approval to start developing anything. But it sounds like you're talking about a process that's beyond that.

Shannon 7:31

Yeah. So a, a good marketing process should not only go out and capture. You know, the market potential, but it should lead into things like, what's the position of the actual product in the market? What hole are we filling, filling you know, what, what are, what are, you know, customers actually saying that are using these types of products? And then, you know, really what, what the mar a good marketing process and a good marketer should do is not only tell you what the market potential is, but tell you exactly the space that you're going to fill within that market. It should be very specific. This is the, you know, this is the, the, the target audience. The type of people that we're gonna be going after with this type of product. These are the problems we are solving for, and these are the things that you know, are the priorities that are absolutely essential. And these are the things that, that are, are nice to have.

Dianna 8:28

So the marketing team would walk through a process to be able to create that information, to understand that information. What are some of the most important touch points when it comes to working with the engineering team in this process?

Shannon 8:45

Yeah, I, you know, I, I think the engineering team and the marketing team have to be sort of one in the, in this, in both the, the, the r and d process and the development process, but also in really going out and capturing this VOC, in my opinion, the, you know, the best teams that I've ever worked with and worked on are the ones where you can't tell the difference between the marketing people. And the RD people. And when that happens, something really special happens. They, everything starts to kind of gel together. And people, you know, people definitely still have their lanes that they play in and their, their, their areas of expertise. But when engineering is involved in going out and understanding and capturing VOC. And marketing, marketing is involved in actually helping design the product. I think what you get is a much more well-rounded and focused product and, and a team that, you know, gets along. And when teams get along, they move faster. They make decision, they make better decisions. And I, I think that, you know, really involving r and d and engineering on the, on the marketing side of things and vice versa, is essential in achieving that.

Dianna 10:00

So really maintaining synergy for the whole process from looking at the market and defining your customers through the actual development and design.

Shannon 10:11

Dianna, I'll give you a quick anecdote on this, is, you know, one of my most successful projects that I've ever worked on we, we launched a, we launched, launched a one. Orthopedic plating system for, for the foot many, many years ago. This was one of my first product launches as a matter of fact, and it did extremely well. It was a right, right place, right time. And, and the rest of the, the rest of the foot and ankle market jumped in and, and started eating our market share very quickly. And so. We, we actually had a, had as a, as an organization, I was with Wright Medical at the time. We had to react to this, this mar, this erosion that we were seeing and we had to do it quickly. And so we formed a team myself and, three engineers and we went out and we quickly got VOC together. We quickly developed, you know, what this, what this particular plating system that we were responding to the market with was going to be and what gaps that it filled and. We literally held hands on every single aspect of this project. And usually a plating system like that would take 24 months to around 24 or 36 months to get out. And we did it, we did it in, in about a year. So we, we split the time in half and it was the most successful product launch that that company had had ever seen. And the reason that it was, was because that team understood exactly. What the destination was, and we worked together on every aspect of that project to get it done and, and. And we, we, there was a little bit of luck because all of our suppliers delivered on time. And that, but also the fact that, that we were so congealed in that was just it, it made, it made my life a lot better, number one. But as far as the efficiency of what we did, it was tremendous. And I haven't been able to replicate it to that degree. But a good process will help you in that regard.

Dianna 12:11

Throughout the product development process, I see it as a team learning about this new product as they go. The further along you get in the product development process, the more you understand about it, about its limitations and your defining its features and so forth.

Shannon 12:28

All right.

Dianna 12:28

So I can see a perspective in many companies where marketing will work with the upfront, work with the engineers upfront, and we can visualize what that looks like. But then as you get farther along in product development I like your. Your viewpoint of keeping marketing involved, what have been some of the late stage design decisions where marketing really had to provide a lot of input or was able to provide input and insight for design decisions to help the engineers in later stages?

Shannon 13:04

Yeah. You know. Thinking through that a little bit certainly marketing plays a significant role in, in making those decisions decisions later, later in the process. But I think the, the main role of marketing throughout that process is really to be disciplined to, to, to what we defined as. The, the problem that we're solving and also having a real priority list of the things that are really, really important and the things that are nice to have. And as you get further along in that design process marketing has to be the one that says, no, guys, we can't. We can't skirt around this. This is a hard input and, and we have to do this thing, this one thing or two things really, really, really well. The other things, you know, we can, sometimes we can cut corners on, we can make some negotiations with, but marketing has to be the one that really defines the things that are most important and then drive the team to, to be disciplined around those things. And, and that's where Dianna, I have seen marketing really play the kind of a game changing difference later on in those, in that process is really being disciplined around those decisions that make a product really great and positioned well in the market versus compromised. I.

Dianna 14:29

So it sounds like maintaining the voice of the customer throughout the project is definitely an important role. Preventing scope creep and making sure that the I guess that the customer. And your targeted ideal state was well-defined and then always represented throughout the product development process. Do I have that right?

Shannon 14:47

Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, you know. In real time. What this looks like, and I've, I've, I've uttered these words many times in a, in a development project is, but guys, what are we doing? Right? And we need to, we need to ask ourselves that on, really on all projects, what are we doing here? And let's make sure that what we're doing is directed towards the right things. And, and I think marketing has to play that voice. What are we doing right this second? To, to ensure that, that we are, that we're headed in the right direction.

Dianna 15:23

Yeah, providing that why behind all the decisions.

Shannon 15:27

Yeah. E exactly. And that, and that all has to point back to that why. And I think that's a, a great insight. You have to lead with that why, but also that why has to be captured in, in that marketing process that I talked about.

Dianna 15:44

So now you talked about a project that would usually take two years, but you you guys were able to work efficiently with suppliers to get a product out to market in a year. So product development projects sometimes do take a long time to develop, whether it's new technology or doing verification validation. What kind of things would a marketing lead do for a project if during that time things have shifted just during the time of development maybe the customer needs or the market had shifted. How does that translate or get wrapped into the design process? What happens in those situations?

Shannon 16:26

Yeah, that's, that's a hard situation to be in because as a, as a marketer, you have to be the bad guy in that situation. And, and one of, one of two things have happened when you need to make a, a fairly dramatic change midway in a process. Either your inputs were wrong. Which happens, right? Some of our assumptions that, that we make can be wrong. And, and that's part of, kind of, part of the marketing game. It's not always, always an exact science or two, you know, to, to your point, something has changed in the market that, that you need to respond to. And that is a very, very difficult situation to be in. And it takes. Number one, it takes a lot of thought from a marketing person or really the, the entire team to walk through that scenario and, and really check yourself as to whether your, your product design is meeting the position that, that you've defined. But ultimately somebody has to make the decision that says, okay guys, we're gonna, we're gonna spend, you know, three months of this project with a change and, and resources are gonna go towards this. It's a big decision. We're gonna delay a product launch by X amount. And the, you know, I, I think in order to do that efficiently, you gotta have. The right data behind it, you know, just make those decisions willy-nilly. But also as a marketer, you have to align with your RD counterparts throughout that decision making process that you, you can't, in other words, you can't come into a, into a meeting and just, you know, throw a monkey wrench into everything. You, you've gotta, you've gotta prepare the, the team for something like that, if that makes sense.

Dianna 18:14

Now you talk about a process. Would that scenario involve redoing some of that process, some of those steps?

Shannon 18:21

Sometimes, yeah. You know, in my marketing, my marketing process that I use, one of the thing, and, and this, you know, this process doesn't happen over a, a two week period, right? This is a, this is a two year period type of, type of process. And as you go through the project. You're building out your marketing plan just like you're building out the product. But yeah, part of part of that is going back and if something changes, you know, sort of mid midstream, you need to go back and, and really look at your assumptions and make sure that your, you know, your marketing assumptions and your, your action plan is, is still applicable for. So yeah, sometimes you need to take a step back to move forward.

Dianna 19:04

Can you tell me more about your process?

Shannon 19:07

Sure. It's, it's actually not my process. It's something that I've adopted and something that was taught to me throughout my career or at a point in my career. Essentially what it does is that it, it, it starts at VOC and, and market data collection. It, it aligns with an RD process to ensure that once you get to, you know, a stage gate, you have all of the marketing inputs that you need to move forward. And then of course, at the end, what it essentially does is provide you a, a launch. A launch execution it's starting at a, at a very strategic level and getting down to a very tactical level. And so by the time you get to those later stage gates, marketing should be able to not only tell you, you know, how you're gonna launch this thing and, and what your messaging is, but who your targets are. You know, what, what mediums you're using to advertise all of those things. And in my experience, when you have that defined and the entire team understands what that launch looks like, and, and it's aligned in the, in the actual development process everything goes better. Your launch just is, is a lot easier to execute and. You have the entire team behind you. And, and one thing that I like to do is make sure that I'm including my, my engineers who have worked so hard on this to honor that work. I think involving them in that launch process and ensuring that they have, you know, site to customers, they understand exactly how this thing is performing is, is extremely important.

Dianna 20:48

So with a new project. If you wanted to use this process for a new project, I imagine you would start right at the planning phase that this is, these are, this is what we're going to do. And you mentioned stage gate. So actually defining the deliverables of what kind of things you're going to be covering in your process at that time. Is that right?

Shannon 21:09

Yeah, exactly. So, and this is something that, that the marketing leadership and leadership's in, in general. Has to hold their team, their teams accountable on is when you get to that stage gate zero or stage gate one, wherever, you know, however that works in your organization, that the entire team has the inputs they need to actually move forward. And that requires, that requires marketing to ensure that they've got their stuff together, they've been given the time and, and they've actually done the work. To, to, to move forward in, in that project. What you don't wanna do, and to me this is the kiss of death. What you don't wanna do is say, okay guys, we're gonna go, we're gonna go make a new paperclip, and the next day you have r and d building prototypes. To me, that's, that bias a, a project very quickly, and it's just not a good way to kick it off.

Dianna 22:03

Yeah, I've I've heard someone call that the fixedness when prototypes of something is, are done too early now, it, now it introduces fixedness, which is a cognitive bias that people can't get past that to develop anything differently. I.

Shannon 22:17

That's a, that's a, that's a great insight. Yeah. And I think that it's very difficult'cause that's what really great engineers wanna do, is they want to go engineer immediately. And I think it, you know, applying a little discipline to a process that says, just hold on a second, let's go get the information we need to go get, define the problem and then go solve the problem. I think is is very, very important.

Dianna 22:42

So we're talking about product design development and the parallel marketing development process together. And you mentioned Stagegate, which are for people that don't work in Stagegate. That's a point along the development process where everyone will get together in the cross-functional team and make sure that the project is progressing like it should. So the inputs at some of these points along the product development process, at the very beginning, you're working with engineers to define the customers and define the actual target that you want to achieve with your new product. With reliability engineers, a way that they interact with the engineering and design team is to talk about things that are new, unique. Difficult or special so that they can get their foot in the door to start talking about how to incorporate reliability into the process. Is that similar with marketing? One of the inputs in the early stage is to talk about things that are new, unique, difficult, or special.

Shannon 23:49

Yeah, sure. You know, I think that's, that's a. An essential part of it is really identifying the things that are on the market currently, meaning competitive products or or unmet needs that, that, that are opportunities for us to kind of make this product shine and really create a position in the market for that product. So yeah, I think that. Really identifying those things on the front end with, with a, with a VOC is very important. But, you know, to that point, Dianna, a lot of times those epiphanies happened, happen, excuse me, through in, in the actual process. Right. At least that's been my experience. When we go to the lab and we're, we're trying out a new product on a, on a, a cadaveric specimen. Sometimes epiphanies happen and you've got to, when, when that happens, you know, you've got a really good input from, from one of your design surgeons or you know, somebody came up with a brilliant idea. You do have to have the ability to pivot. You absolutely have to have the ability to say, okay, that's a great idea. Let's, let's take a step back. How long is it gonna cost us if we, you know, if we incorporate this and let's, let's measure it and make sure that we're all making the, the right decision. But put it in there. Absolutely.

Dianna 25:11

So with these two parallel processes and there's stage gate deliverables, what are a few things that the marketing and engineering teams can do to ensure that they're aligned between the stage gates? There's development happening there's new things being learned. Sometimes engineers can go off into the corner and just do the engineering stuff and then don't resurface again until a stage gate. What are some examples of activities that marketing and engineering can do together during the design process that help them align on ideas?

Shannon 25:49

Yeah. Yeah. You know, the most important thing, at least from my perspective, is the soft skills. You know. Working on a team with r and d with, with RD engineers and marketing people and finance people it, it can be difficult because those people are a lot of times built differently, right? They think differently. They, they act differently. They're motivated by different, you know, by different things. So I think the, the soft skills side of things has to be, you know, the, the first thing you work on and. To the point where, you know, you work with, you should be working with these people on a daily basis. I, I look at it from the standpoint. I, I spend more time with my coworkers a lot of times than I do my, my wife. And so that relationship with that person is extremely important, extremely complex. It's also extremely important and it can be the linchpin on whether a project works or doesn't work. And so to me the number one thing you can do first and foremost is to intentionally build a relationship with your marketing or r and d counterparts. And that sounds a little squishy. And it is a little bit, but at least in my experience, that has been the most important thing, is really, really building a relationship. I think the second thing is just really giving your, your marketing team the space and the time to actually go out and build VOC and then have the discipline to, to take a step back and say, okay, we don't know what we're solving for yet. Let's not go into, let. Let's not go into the corner and start building prototypes. Let's, let's adhere to the process. Let's give my, our marketing team the, the space that they need to really go out and define what that is, and then hold'em accountable to it. Right? If they come back and it's not defined, then that's on them. So, yeah, I think those, those two things, just building that relationship and then providing the space and discipline to actually go out and, and achieve, you know, VOC is, is very important.

Dianna 27:55

When, I guess for the engineers listening, that's what engineers would like too. When it comes to. The design and development part is the space and the time to be able to do their work. So it sounds like we just need to give marketers the same respect in the work that they do.

Shannon 28:13

Yeah. And, and again, you know, you have to be able to see your marketing person as a person first, first and foremost, right? They're, they're, they're a person just like you with a lot of different things going on in their life, and they may think differently than you. I think getting, actually getting to know that person on a, on a very personal level. Is, is very important. And then you can have Dianna, you can have those conversations about, Hey, I need you to back off for about, you know, a week so I can go get my job done and then we'll talk again. But you know, in order to have that conversation, you need to have a relationship with that person.

Dianna 28:54

And I would imagine having a defined process, like what we started talking about, having a defined process for product development with marketing and engineering tracks both going can also help make some of those relationships and conversations that you need to have, make it easier to understand what's happening when.

Shannon 29:16

Yeah, absolutely. And, and it, and it, it also helps you in, in achieving accountability throughout that process when the team is holding each other accountable to, to a process and to a timeline. It can either be very contentious or it can be an actual bonding experience. And, and I think it's important to build those relationships with your, with your marketing counterparts so that, so that the team doesn't become contentious, so you can, you know, hold each other accountable to a process, into a timeline without things spinning out of control.

Dianna 29:54

So for an engineer listening today that maybe, their product development process doesn't have the parallel marketing process yet. What's one thing that they can do to improve the situation? And I understand it might be reaching out to your marketing lead and having a cup of coffee. But what are what's what's some of your advice to get the engineers talking to their marketing counterpoints? What would be one thing to do?

Shannon 30:21

Yeah, I, I think, you know, if you don't have a defined process I think getting with your, your marketing counterpart and really start to define some of the questions that you need to ask on the front end, excuse me, some of the questions you need to answer on the front end of the project is really important. So even though you may not have a defined marketing process, you may not have a defined way to go out and, and get voice, a customer. Understanding together what questions we're asking, I think is very, very important. So. In other words, what I would do is literally sit down with my marketing person and say, Hey, we've got this great project coming up. In my mind it's sort of this, but I have these questions in order for us to go, you know, in order for us to, to move forward together. I, I just wanna make sure that we're answering these questions and then, and then, you know, again, give, give that marketing person some, some time to go out and answer those questions. And then, when they come back, they, they need to have the answers in order for the mo the project to move forward.

Dianna 31:26

That's great advice. Do you have any recommended reading podcasts or websites for engineers? I.

Shannon 31:34

Yeah, let me think through that. Yeah, actually, yeah.'cause you know. I, like I said, I, I love, I love what I do. I, I absolutely love the process and the, the, the, the, the achievement of launching a project, a product. Like, it's, it's an amazing feeling when you work on something for literally years. You see it go out and you, you, you see it achieve its fullest. It's one of the most fulfilling experiences of my career. What has helped me get there faster than anything is really, you know, understanding what the main thing is and, and a book, I'm getting back to the book here, a book that helped me kind of have that, that realization is called the One Thing. And the one thing is really about. Getting to the main point of, of, of whatever project you're working on. And it can't be a thousand things. And usually in, in complex projects, it's not one thing. But defining, you know, the most important things for a project is extremely important. So the book, the one thing was a, was a, was a big deal for me. It helped me kind of clarify a lot of projects that I was working on.

Dianna 32:52

Oh, that's great. I'll have to look that up. I've heard of it and I haven't read it yet, so

Shannon 32:57

Absolutely. I can't remember the author, but it's, if you search it on Amazon, it'll, it'll pop up. It's like a New York Times bestseller.

Dianna 33:03

Yeah, and I'll put a link to it in the show notes.

Shannon 33:07

Perfect.

Dianna 33:07

How can the audience find out more about you? Can they contact you and what's the best way to do that?

Shannon 33:13

LinkedIn is always the best way to, to, to, to, to get me. Again, my name's Shannon Cummings. I'm, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn, as you mentioned, Dianna. What I try to do on LinkedIn, LinkedIn is, it's kind of, you know, just provide some insights and some, even some mistakes that I've made throughout my career and, and hopefully it's, it's, you know valuable to some people. So if you do have questions certainly you can, you can send me a message via LinkedIn. That's always the best way to do it.

Dianna 33:42

Well, Shannon, I've really enjoyed talking with you this morning. It's great to have someone in the cross-functional team for new product design come and share their insights just like you do on LinkedIn, but now on a podcast. So I appreciate you joining me today.

Shannon 33:57

It was Dianna. It was my absolute pleasure. I'm, as you can probably tell, I'm, I'm passionate about this stuff. I love it a hundred percent. I was telling you earlier, you know, I'm, I'm a wannabe engineer and the, that, that's, that's actually helped me out throughout my career because. I've been fascinated with product design and r and d and it's been a way for me to kind of exercise that muscle throughout my career. So thank thanks for having me and I've, I've enjoyed the conversation.

Dianna 34:25

I enjoyed my conversation with Shannon. He knows when to engage, how to connect, and why early alignment matters. He doesn't just collect data, he translates it. He doesn't just show up at launch. He's been in the trenches from day one. So here's my takeaway for you. Don't wait to bring marketing into the product development process. Invite your marketing lead in early. Ask them about the customer insights, the unmet needs, and the real pain points. Before you sketch a prototype, ask them about positioning priorities and what success really looks like in the market, and then keep them in the loop, not just at stage gates throughout the journey. Product development doesn't have to be fragmented when marketing, engineering, and product work as one team. Aligned from day one, grounded in customer insight and guided by a shared process. Results don't just improve, they transform. So if you're ready to break down those silos, clarify your purpose and build products that truly matter, let's talk. Visit QualityduringDesign.com/talk to book a quick no pressure, 15 minute conversation, no pitch, no sales, just a real talk about how to make your product development process more aligned, more efficient, and more human. And if this episode sparks something for you, share it with one person on your team who needs to hear it. Because the best products aren't built by individuals. They're built by teams that finally get each other. This has been a production of Deeney Enterprises. Thanks for listening.